tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post114330931322093068..comments2023-07-04T03:53:40.171-07:00Comments on Matt Kundert's Friday Experiment: Pirsig, Ad Hominems, and the Three Rhetorical ArchetypesMatt Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05304261355315746372noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143743275755043182006-03-30T11:27:00.000-07:002006-03-30T11:27:00.000-07:00can't track down the source at this present moment...can't track down the source at this present moment, but I think that Aristotle says that the soul relates to the body in the way that a smile relates to a face - it's not a separate entity, it's an organisation (a pattern of value?) <BR/><BR/>so I'm not meaning it in a Platonic ideal form sense.<BR/><BR/>btw I think using your blog as a proper archive is excellent - and it means that those of us who don't subscribe to MD can keep upSam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143494340114341882006-03-27T14:19:00.000-07:002006-03-27T14:19:00.000-07:00Ian,I'm definitely at the end of my rope with the ...Ian,<BR/><BR/>I'm definitely at the end of my rope with the "theatre" post. But isn't that the way those particular exchanges go? In this little circle, where the conversation finally just settles on repetitions of how I'm incomprehensible and my repetitions of how I'm sick of this shit?<BR/><BR/>Meh, whatever. I like your saying that the written word "reifies" the individual ego. That's the unavoidable danger of writing. Reminds me of Pirsig when he says in ZMM that an essay just sounds like a person speaking for eternity.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304261355315746372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143494000743554292006-03-27T14:13:00.000-07:002006-03-27T14:13:00.000-07:00Sam,I wrote the archetypes bit at the spur of the ...Sam,<BR/><BR/>I wrote the archetypes bit at the spur of the moment in a letter to Erin Noonan some time ago, which I then included in the MD post from which almost all of this taken from (most of my posts in the near future will be me saving for posterity things I've already written in the past in letters and posts). I just kinda' wrote it for fun, but I think there are some interesting things to be read out of the juxtapositions it makes. I'm still pondering them.<BR/><BR/>For instance, you're right that Pirsig would prima facie disagree with being pinned with Aristotle, and that Phaedrus, in both ZMM and Lila, is Platonic. I'm wondering how far that goes, particularly when it comes to philosophical style. My own little archetypes can certainly be bent, broken, and replaced by better ones, but I wonder if Pirsig, taken as the whole of Phaedrus and the narrator, isn't more like Aristotle then he might admit. I don't know.<BR/><BR/>I'm becoming more interested in "literary" things with Pirsig, which is what Pirsig inadvertantly denigrated in his Baggini exchange. I think that was a mistake given his rhetoric v. dialectic battle of ZMM, but it does show an interesting side of him.<BR/><BR/>With respect to your "soul" comment, I imagine your ready for my reply that that sounds too Platonic. I mean, isn't that too Platonic for an Aristotelian? Your not resurrecting some notion of anamnesis, surely, but I'm not sure what else is implied by that kind of thing other than my most hated enemy, the appearance/reality bugbear. Ya' know, the whole thing about getting rid of our static patterns to set free the "true" part of ourselves, Quality. I've been fighting the idea that DQ is another word for Quality for a while, and your vocab for it fits very nicely for it: the soul, or DQ, is that which is identical to Quality (or God) and we need to set it free. I'd still like to buck that formulation.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304261355315746372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143486199598913702006-03-27T12:03:00.000-07:002006-03-27T12:03:00.000-07:00Ian,Yes, you're right about the situation dependen...Ian,<BR/><BR/>Yes, you're right about the situation dependency of certain arguments. What I don't understand is the posture some people take. Aggressive language isn't always out of court, but I still don't understand the conversational habits of some people. Why can't people be polite and respectful? It's a fine line to be sure, but its one that's put in sharp relief after a while with some people. It's the "theatricality" of some people that I think just hampers conversation after a while. And on that, you'll see my post I just wrote to the MD.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05304261355315746372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143399707208283562006-03-26T12:01:00.000-07:002006-03-26T12:01:00.000-07:00Oh and PS - I think 'soul' has some correspondence...Oh and PS - I think 'soul' has some correspondence with 'big self' but I don't know enough about Buddhism to establish how much.Sam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24152639.post-1143399659595569332006-03-26T12:00:00.000-07:002006-03-26T12:00:00.000-07:00I think it was Jung who said 'free will is the abi...I think it was Jung who said 'free will is the ability to do gladly that which you must do'. I think the issue is the interrogation of your own static patterns so that the Quality is able to flow through them - we are not in charge of the Quality, but we do bear some responsibility for allowing it to take place. Augustine said much the same thing.<BR/><BR/>FWIW I think this is where the 'soul' kicks in - that bit of us which is identical to Quality which needs to be set free from the static patterns which restrict it, but which we are not able to control, only surrender to. <BR/><BR/>I'm definitely an Aristotelian. But I've said that before. Intriguing that you make Pirsig correspond to him - I wouldn't have thought he'd agree - but I would accept that the narrator of ZMM corresponds to Aristotle. I think the Phaedrus of Lila is a Platonist.Sam Charles Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04088870675715850624noreply@blogger.com